David Koresh was originally Vernon Wayne Howell and like Wayne Bent (Michael Travesser) he led a Seventh Day Adventist breakaway sect. Like many others he claimed to be the last prophet of God.
Also like Travesser, and many other cult leaders, Koresh was a sexual predator and child sex abuser. Koresh claimed that he could have any of the females in his compound as his own and he also claimed to have been anointed by God. All of these things echo claims by Travesser. The behaviour of Travesser in ‘dissolving’ the marriages of his followers, not only gave him the self justification to have sex with his daughter-in-law (contrary to Mosaic law in Leviticus), but also, like Koresh, undermined the traditional parent-child relationship and replaced it with a dependence upon a central figure, himself.
Koresh, like Travesser, progressively revealed what he claimed to be God’s plan. In both cases the plan provides for women followers to become wives of the leader and for female children to be socialised to desire to be chosen as a bride of the leader.
Just like the residents of Travesser’s Strong City, children and adults in the Waco compound explained clearly and repeatedly why they chose to remain of their own free will in the sect. The psychological domination by these cult leaders is complete.
In the case of Koresh at Waco 76 people lost their lives in a final confrontation with the FBI. Whoever caused that final loss of life, the deaths and the sex abuse were all the result of the manipulation by David Koresh and the neediness of those who fell into his control.
I am invigilating A levels at the moment and one of the rooms I have been placed in is the religious studies room. There are quotes from all religions there but my favourite which I stare at for way too long is one by Karl Marx…which I can’t remember exactly, so I have to paraphrase ‘religion is a man made invention to provide comfort to the working class.’ Yep. Sad but true.
Yes I’m afraid it is true. Marx also said that ‘religion is the opiate of the masses’ and I think there is a lot of truth in that too.
If people think that things are wrong in their lives or wrong with society, but they think they are powerless to change whatever is wrong, there can be a temptation to turn to charismatic figures who promise a solution to everything and eternal happiness. Once they have been sold the vision of paradise, the process of cutting them off from all of their connections with non-believers begins and the price for salvation starts to be extracted. The price differs with every group. In some cases it is mostly money, but often it is also in handing over identity, individuality and freedom of thought.
This process is most extreme and disastrous in the cases of the tiny cult groups that I have been highlighting, but the same behaviour in more diluted form takes place in every other faith based organisation.
Well, don’t be “sad” for us “opiates” of this world, Narnie, we know the score. If that bastard Marx would of had any concern FOR his fellow man, instead of trying to prove that other bastard Darwin right in his demented theories of how man is ‘evolving’ from pit slime to something akin to a pickled brain in a jar, maybe the masses wouldn’t have turned to God for comfort. Funny, though… people that espouse the mad prophet Darwin’s crackpot insanities seem to think that an organism like Marx OR Koresh SHOULDN’T do whatever it takes to rise to the top of the SCUM PILE that comprises the population of this doomed planet… including breeding several women at once! After all, he’s just doing what INSTINCT tells him to do… RIGHT?
You infidel Einsteins always amaze me! Gos doesn’t exist, but His name figures largely in your vocabulary, (mostly of a derogatory nature) and when the going gets tough, then you invoke that hated name when your science and your philosophy inevitably lets you down. Then, you ascribe morals to a ‘species’ that has evolved from CHANCE, owing it’s existence to random actions of electrochemical activity, when morality (or your definition of it) is a ridiculous concept at BEST in the evolutionary paradigm! Amazing lunacy!
And YOU don’t think your blind allegiance to secular humanism ISN’T a religious faith? The dogma you infidels RAM down student’s throats in public school, allowing no other alternative theory other than political-correctness, Humanism, Feminism, Homosexualism, Communism, Socialism… all sorts of ‘isms’ that are defined primarily as cultic, and have had their destructive influence upon a dumb-downed population that gets stupider every generation? Ever check the stats on the ‘quality’ of education in America, and how it’s people are MORONS next to other countries that have more “opiates” in their culture?
Awwww… now I’ve gone and insulted y’all, daring to inflict my non politically-correct values and specious theories upon your enlightened sensibilities! Take a look at your ‘evolved’ world you have… isn’t it wonderful? You know, why should it be any different when people are programmed almost from popping out of the vagina that they are just a biological ORGANISM whose progenitors were amoeba and paramecium’s? Where is the place for love or respect or honor in a world where the fittest are the ones that get to survive, huh? You’re kind of fucked up in your thinking, aren’t you?
Oh well, my work is done, here. Now, go take your self-righteous asses down to the FBI, and ask them why they didn’t nab Koresh when he was out on his DAILY jog, running right past their jackbooted noses? And what fly crawled up the Bureau’s ass that embarrassed those Nazis so bad that they had to make an example out of women and children pursuing their God-given (not Darwin’s) right to live as they chose… hurting NO ONE! Go ask them, you twits! See if YOUR asses aren’t thrown in the gulag for it! You know, for a Libertarian, you sure ascribe a lot of power to the establishment, boy!
I knew some of those people, fool, and I know what REALLY went down, there, and I didn’t learn it from elitist-controlled media like you ‘professors’ did, I got it from the SOURCE! So, you take Narnie, and you go fuck yourselves into Darwin heaven, and procreate like germs, because there are no rights or wrongs in his (your) universe!
Enjoy life in the “New World Order” of fascism that your indifference helped to create, Mr. “Libertarian.” When they come for YOU, remember Vern Howell!
Prick!
Well highwayman I am not a humanist or a professor, but no doubt you are a highwayman. Your post speaks eloquently of the quality of your thought.
None of it is worth replying to, but when you claim that Koresh was not hurting anybody you are effectively saying that sexual abuse of children is OK. You are right that my libertarianism does not include that, and there is a role for the state in preventing children from being raped.
WOW! What a charmer!
At least he suggested that you and I should go and procreate Narnie, rather than offering his attractive services to either of us
*sniggers*
Yeah, there they go, always trying to lay the ‘moral’ thing on anyone that stands up to their foolishness… and they, admitted atheists! LOL! Child-abusers? Well, you’ve got your network-spawned propaganda down pat, boy, I’ll give you that! Another bozo that thinks because it came off the tube, it’s gospel! (Oh… sorry… bad choice of words, there!) Luckily, some of us can still think for ourselves, and like I said, I knew them and know what BULLSHIT the government said about them. Here’s a newsflash for you, professor… the government lies from time to time!
Oh, and moron? You think that BURNING WOMEN AND CHILDREN ALIVE IS SAVING THEM??? Wow! Atheists sure are dumb, aren’t they? No, wait… that’s perfectly acceptable in Darwinland, after all, what are good and evil but abstract concepts in a survival of the fittest scenario? What are a few innocents in the grand scheme of things, eh?
You better be careful… Narnie won’t accept you as a prospective mate if you display too many stupid genes, son! The EVILutionary paradigm doesn’t allow for males spreading defective DNA around… she only wants alpha male-type sperm flooding her uterus, fool!
There may be a law that protects children from rapists, as useless as that may be in the EVILutionary paradigm, but is there one that protects them from DUMBASSES like yourself, and the BATF Nazis that ‘SAVE’ them by gassing, shooting, and BURNING them alive because they defied them? All those jackboots had to do was IGNORE them, and they would have come out eventually. Laying siege to them like half-baked Roman legions besieging Masada only galvanized them in their resolve, but then the purpose wasn’t to take them alive, was it? It was to make an example of them, no? Man, you’ve bought into that one, hook, line and sinker! Don’t feel TOO stupid, though… most people in your dumb-assed country have!
You really are a fool, boy, and you WILL live to regret it, I assure you!
I don’t need to rely on government sources or anything else that you might think tainted. Koresh, (I know you refer to him as Vern Howell, but he abandoned that name because he thought he was a divine king from the line of David and Cyrus) ‘married’ a 14 year old child (Karen Doyle) and later started having sex with her 12 year old sister before claiming that he was entitled to have 140 wives. This does not come from the ATF or any other source that you consider corrupt, but from Koresh and his followers. He was a child rapist.
The ATF stakeout of WACO was as clumsy and stupidly handled as many other state activities. That does not make Koresh and the Branch Davidians innocent victims. The cult had turned itself into a heavily armed and booby trapped place of martyrdom. It doesn’t really matter whether the cult or the ATF started the fighting and the fire. The deaths were the result of the paranoid delusions of Koresh.
The frame of mind like yours, Highwayman, led only to McVeigh, Oklahoma and other madness. What people need to do is learn from the history of fake Messiah’s and avoid cults that will only expose them and their children to sexual exploitation, loss of control of their lives, and the very real risk that they might lose their lives in the cause of an egomaniac, fake God.
Marriage is a divinely-instituted rite, shithead! It shouldn’t mean diddly-squat to a sophisticated atheist like yourself, now, should it? That’s what I’ve been trying to drill into your rock read, this last while! Atheists don’t accept God, but suddenly they’re waxing MORAL! Moral don’t cut it in natural selection, son! Is the fog starting to lift at all, boy?
What do YOU care if “King Cyrus” marries a 14 year-old girl, your mother, or the neighbor’s dog? It’s all biology, fool! Just spreading the DNA around! Geez, boy, what does it take to get through that bullet head of yours???
His former church (and I) naturally rejected his views and claims, but we didn’t consign them all to a fiery death like your freaking government did!!! They weren’t hurting ANYONE living the way they were, and EVERYONE that was there was there WILLINGLY and of their own free will, contrary to YOUR intel! Did you KNOW any of them? Did you TALK to any of them? I do and did! I wasn’t of his movement, but a former fellow church member! And I find it offensive that cowards like you can talk about them the way that you do, now that they’re in their graves and can’t defend themselves! And what is especially offensive is that admitted atheists claim to know what is good or bad, when their ‘religion’ preaches that life is merely survival consisting of being the biggest and the baddest and the most virile! The gall you bastards have in trying to tell Christians what is good or bad is unbelievably LAUGHABLE! There isn’t one of you that’s capable of deep thought, is there? If you were, you’d see how LUDICROUS your statements are!
If Koresh and company were guilty of ANYTHING, the LAST person qualified to judge them would be you, a professed atheist, never mind a corporate entity like the US Government! Another flash for you, boy… the state and church are SUPPOSED to be separate, you know, like you dumb-assed infidels are always screeching about how the church wants to take over the country? Now, here you’re doing the same thing you accuse Christians of doing by giving the government jurisdiction over matters of morality!
Rest assured, pretty much EVERYTHING you know about Waco is WRONG! Fabrications by a totalitarian government agency unwilling to have it’s gigantic ego bruised by a rag-tag group of citizens wanting only to live their lives THEIR way. It, and people like you, just can’t stand it when others don’t ascribe to your way of looking at things, and then try to force your will upon them.
You know NOTHING about God, Christianity, and you make a poor atheist, as well! Damnation, son! At LEAST get your OWN dogma straight! If you’re a true atheist, you NEED to just IGNORE them damned Christian nut-bars, boy, not get all hot and bothered over how they live their lives! How do you feel about Homosexuals, huh? I don’t like their lifestyle, but I don’t go around setting fire to them, either! How come you’re not on about them, son? Males boinking one another won’t promote the continuation of the species, dipstick! I should think that they would be more of a threat to a Godless atheist than Koresh banging a few adolescents; by definition, only by some figure that some psychologist-slash-bureaucrat dreamed up. (Atheist, no doubt!) A law doesn’t define maturity in individuals, or their capacity to reason and make rational choices. Man needs tens of thousands of laws to cover what God only needed ten to do, which, stated simply, means to live responsibly and do no harm to others… what the fuck is wrong with that, Darwin-boy?
I see. Koresh was living contrary to the way YOU thought he should, so he had to die… him, and his “victims.” Nice society you got going, Mal! Your ‘faith’ tells me that all I need to do is brain you, and take your harem and your cave, kill your ofspring, impregnate the females, thereby fulfilling my evolutionary biological programming. My faith places value on human life, and teaches responsibility toward my fellow creatures.
Now, tell me… who is the “mad” thinker, here?
You. You are completely offensive and ridiculous with the way you speak, the views you hold and with your inexplicable arrogance. You are the perfect example of how religion fucks with peoples minds. You obviously do not have a single clue as to how to go about reasonable debate and – man – your anger! Have you tried taking something for that? Sorry malpoet but I have to ask – this guy is obviously deranged and just doing this for attention… shouldn’t it be a little bit like a naughty child where you just ignore him now?
I come by my arrogance honestly, sweetums, through logic and knowledge, unlike you and the professor! You’re so immersed in your politically-correct version of “debate” that you won’t even acknowledge my challenges… you’re so convinced that you’re right! And MOI being deranged? As opposed to what… you and your atheistic views that you’re not willing to defend in a “reasonable debate”? I know, sugar, I wouldn’t want to have to take me on, either!
A reasonable debate that began with the slander of the character of people you didn’t even know, but judged in accordance with your high and lofty atheistically moral (?) beliefs? People that were murdered because they dared to think differently than you? You’re a piece of work, you are, honey! LOL!
You’re like the rest of your creed… people so involved with themselves and their estimation of their superiority that nothing or no one else matters, except that it/they agree with your version of reality. I haven’t even touched the tip of the iceberg with this, snookums, ’cause I know you’re not up to it! I think your boyfriend is a tad more with it than you… his response wasn’t so emotional! My anger (I prefer to call it righteous indignation) is confined to what you do to dead people’s character when they aren’t able to defend themselves. Other than that, I wouldn’t mind having a go with you, myself!
What do you say… think we can put aside our religious differences long enough for a quick romp in the hay, Babe? You just might like my DNA better than ol’ Mal’s!
Would that be in accordance with Darwin’s law?
First of all Highwayman, don’t be offensive and abusive to Narnie. I don’t know her, but I do not want her exposed to your offensiveness. You should consider why you are so negative, offensive and abusive in general.
Of course I have moral values. Morality has nothing to do with God or any religion. Your own morality, Highwayman, seems to me to be very questionable. The rape of a child is a vile crime and when you say that Koresh and his cult were harming nobody it seems that you reject this. I find your mealy mouthed reference to ‘a law doesn’t define maturity in individuals’ to be particularly chilling. This is the typical justification of his actions by a paedophile. This is exactly what Michael Travesser has been saying to try to justify being naked in bed with a child. Travesser has much in common with Koresh and these sexual predators take comfort from cranks like you saying that they hare not harming anybody.
I am not going to respond to your whole range of religious delusions, but you really should learn something about the bible that you appear to claim to live by. God did not provide only ten laws. In addition to the ten commandments that were said to be inscribed in stone, there was a very large collection of laws given by God to Moses. These include all sorts of ritual cleansing, dietary laws, laws for the proper procedure for sacrifices and masses of stuff about who you may and may not have sex with. If you really wish to obey God’s law, you should aquaint yourself with Leviticus.
I don’t shut people up because they disagree with me, but do not comment on this blog again if you are just going to abuse other contributors.
Maybe I wouldn’t be so “offensive” if people would LISTEN instead of formulating their next retort… and what I have been TRYING to say is that you have a FALSE report about the Davidians! I’m giving you testimony from people I knew and know PERSONALLY and who were THERE! You PREFER to think that CNN or whomever have the inside track over those that were there! And when you and Narnie wag your heads and call other people’s faiths delusional, and me a crank, and you get your come-uppance for it, then you squeal UNFAIR? Hey… you want to throw punches, expect a few in return, bucko!
You are still mocking religion, and that’s okay, because I used to as well, before I gained some experience in the world. You are ignorant in matters of spirituality, having been spoon-fed lies by an atheistic system all your life, so I understand why you think the way you do. I wasn’t always a Christian, either, but at least had the guts to challenge authority and the status quo, and was man enough to admit it when I was wrong! No, what got my goat was someone making judgements about an event that they really have no business judging, because they only have government disinformation to go on and their own prejudice.
Howell’s practices were not condoned by most in his former congregation, and they were quick to distance themselves from him during and after the Waco incident. His lifestyle didn’t meet with my approval, either, but I did know two of those women who were with him, and they said later that they were there because they wanted to be. Some of those kids were Howell’s, but not all. He may have been a polygamist, but he didn’t abuse children! He wasn’t living by Christian standards for marriage, in my view, but the POINT I was TRYING to make was and is that the excuse the government is using for murdering those folks is that he was abusing kids (he was NOT) and keeping people hostage (he was NOT) and was a threat to society as a whole… and THAT I would need to see proof of, because I know the weapons cache lie was just that… a LIE perpetrated by the government to justify their wanting to make an example of these people. Why an example? Well, that would take some time to explain, and I sense your eyes glazing over in disbelief, anyway, so I won’t say anything there except that the government is not run by the political forces that you imagine are in authority. The true masterminds are violently anti-Christian, and all “Christian” churches not already under their thumb are considered subversives, and any excuse they can use to vilify Christianity, they will use it to make us look like weirdos and cretins and anti-social freak-jobs.
Not to be “offensive” Mal, but you are a product of your generation. You are not thinking before talking, and you are missing some key points. I may not agree with Koresh’s marital beliefs, but I nonetheless support his freedom and those of his clan to live as they choose. Most people today don’t view their rights as inalienable, as did the framers of the Constitution, and think that government has the right to supersede them when THE GOVERNMENT thinks the majority’s welfare is threatened. That thinking has led to some very serious breaches in our societal structure that you, my ignorant friend, are not even aware of. You are, today, laboring under laws and dictates that your ancestors would have rose up and fought against if their leaders would have tried what ours do today with impunity!
I am dealing with a very ignorant and deluded person, here, and am at a loss as to what to say or where to even begin. Your perception of ‘reality’ is stunted, to say the very least. The Levitical laws were merely a detailed, analytical exposition of the original fundamental ten. They also ascribed to and foretold of the coming of the Savior, describing in the temple services the nature and character of God, as well as provide a microcosmic overview of God’s plan for humanity in the sacrifice of Himself on their behalf. That, of course, is laughable to skeptics like you, but fortunately, reality doesn’t hinge on what you or any other atheist condones or accepts. For your information, scoffer, the Lord Himself stated later on during His incarnation that those original ten laws could further be reduced to only TWO! Worship God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Really a condensation of the meaning and purpose of the original ten, and seemingly oblivious to a person that lives in a society where thousands of laws are needed just to keep the marginal sense of order that we have!
And slandering God by using my aggressive nature as proof of Christianity being a farce is the STUPIDEST excuse one could have for refusing to accept Christianity as a viable belief system! Yes, I use course language, nor am I above abusing certain individuals that invite abuse with their condescending attitude toward those of different faiths and beliefs, and I might even ENJOY doing it, too! I’m human, like you, with all of the attendant failings, and a few custom-designed ones to boot! I’ve never yet met a “perfect” Christian who does it all right to suit their atheist detractors, and I couldn’t care less if you or Narnie approve or disapprove of me, my friends, my beliefs, or my lifestyle! At least I don’t go around making fun of the dead, especially when they were murdered and slandered and misrepresented! That is a typical atheist characteristic, I’m well aware, but it still gets my blood boiling when fools go on about subjects with a ‘knowledge’ based upon rhetoric and hearsay!
Morality has nothing to do with God, hmmm? Tell me, then, what does it have to do with Natural Selection? Survival of the fittest? Where in Darwin’s work does it show that heightened sensibilities and a sense of justice is necessary for adaptation or survival of an organism? Aside from the obvious benefits that cohabitation and cooperation provide for a civilized society as taught in religion, what does the theory of origins as provided by evolutionary thinking contribute toward those? The little bit of freedom you still have left that hasn’t been stolen from you by atheistic totalitarians is given to by a benevolent God, not some ape in a far-off and obscure past!
You are right that we need a sense of morality and justice… I’ve ALWAYS agreed with that! It is found in God’s law and economy, not the fang and claw world of the atheist! In your paradigm, Koresh did nothing wrong, except that he didn’t get the drop on his killers FIRST! YOUR monkey ancestors didn’t let morals or your sense of morality stop them from boinking every female that they could… they NEEDED to spread their DNA around, so your sorry ass could have existence today, right? So, if you’re right and I’m wrong, WHAT’S THE BEEF? Koresh was only doing what Great-Great-(X 1000) Grandpa did to perpetuate the species! Is the light coming on yet, son?
You have morality, because of God, not Darwin! So, make up your mind… which is it? Be an atheist, but don’t preach that morality spawned along with some mindless grub in a primordial pool, trillions of years ago. In the atheistic paradigm, Koresh (or the government, for that matter) did nothing wrong. Only through the eyes of justice and morality; two fundamental principles of God’s government, could there have been any infraction or crime or retribution.
And my apologies to you and the lady. I won’t be bothering you, anymore.
You won’t be missed Highwayman, but thanks for the apologies and at least this post was a little more rational.
You have not understood natural selection. It does not determine the behaviour of human beings in society, it simply explains how species evolve.
Moral values are created by human beings and they change over time as societies develop. Those who believe that laws, morals and institutions are handed down by God, inevitably cling to the primitive and unacceptable values and standards of societies which have long ago passed into history.
Malpoet,
While the perspective of the Highwayman may seem offensive to a storyteller such as yourself, it is not comparably offensive to your unfounded accusation that Travesser is “a sexual predator and child sex abuser”. You write with the legitimacy of an eight year old child child. An eight year old can be told that a monster lives in the abandoned house on the corner, and the child will not only believe this without any evidence, but will also repeat his artificial fears and imaginations with zeal. So you have done.
I have associated with Mr. Travesser for almost 20 years and I live at the Strong City property. You speak from your vain perceptions and reflect your own perverted lusts, wherein I have observed the man’s character and actions (Travesser) for almost two decades, and can therefore call your accusations at best, unabashed foolishness.
My comments about Travesser are based on what he does and says himself. He took a naked child into his bed where he was naked himself and then touched her. In an attempt at self justification he said that people sometimes had wisdom way beyond their years. This is a form of words often presented by paedophiles attempting to justify their behaviour and it is the same form of words used by Highwayman in justifying the child rape committed by Koresh.
Travesser has behaved in a sexually predatory way with respect to the two ‘witnesses’ and by having sex with his daughter-in-law. Like Koresh, Travesser has claimed to legitimise his polygamous habits by claiming divine authorisation. In common with other sexually motivated cult leaders Travesser has claimed the right to dissolve the marriages of followers and to assert sexual entitlements to himslef over those of established families and relationships.
I have not made any unfounded accusations. What I have said comes from Travesser himself and his followers. He is a sexual predator.
Then you must be a sexual predator Mal, only because I am suggesting so, using the same evidence which you have against Michael. You would have done well to say what Michael did Mal, but instead you have added a revelation of your own predatory heart to your judgment. Everything Michael did has been published online, why didn’t you quote from him? Michael said he placed his hand on the heart of a young woman and did not touch any of her private parts and she did not see see or touch his. This woman laid with him in this manner for a few moments and then left the room.
Is that how you have sex with your mates Mal? Do you put your hand over their heart for a few moments, then they leave the room and you say “wow that was great , can you pass me a cigarette”? Is that kind of like when a man goes into a bank and sticks out his hand to receive the money he has requested, and you then turn him into the police as a bank robber? You may well consider yourself an atheist, but you clearly have no ability to reason out what a sexual act is.
Healed was not a woman, but a child and Travesser is a child molester. Her heart is inside her body and he did not place his hand on her heart. The external part of the body closest to the heart is the left breast. When I pointed this out to Healed she refused to respond and broke off communication.
Travesser continually tries to misrepresent his behaviour in exactly the same way as Bill Clinton misrepresented his behaviour when he said that he ‘did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinski’.
Michael Jackson faced trial for having children in his bed. Jackson was acquitted because of the poor quality of evidence against him. In the case of Travesser and Healed there is no doubt, on the evidence of the two parties, that sexual contact took place between this child and a man in his sixties. Travesser should be arrested and charged in the same way as Jackson was.
Paedophiles frequently feed their fantasies by manipulating intimate contact with children even though they do not have the opportunity or courage to engage in the fullest extent of sexual activity. Many men have been convicted, and even gaoled, for looking at images of naked children let alone lying in bed together naked and touching the child’s breast.
Travesser is a deluded man whose religious and sexual fantasies may well have become entwined. Fortunately, he was stupid enough to invite the gaze of the world on his behaviour in the mistaken hope that new people would be attracted to his crazy beliefs and grow the community that feeds his ego.
Of course the reality was the opposite and now he spends his time trying to justify his misbehaviour and he no longer has the freedom to extend the sexual misconduct in which he previously engaged. Nevertheless, the personality defects that have driven Travesser to do the things he has done are still there and he remains a risk to children.
Travesser should be arrested. The adults who follow Travesser have a free choice to believe his false prophecies, his fantasies of talking to God and his interference in their family relationships, but children must be protected from predators like him.
Mental hospitals are filled with poor souls who believe in fantasies which are not true. Many others such as yourself may very well belong there also, but governments need tax paying serfs to keep the wheels of war running. Hang tight, it may not be long and you could be with those who are like minded as yourself, where you will be well taken care of (drugged) until you can find reality at last.
Sir, I will leave you to your delusions.
Probably a good idea to leave Terry, but why don’t you reply to the points rather than just providing abuse?
These comments tell a fascinating and worrying story in themselves don’t you think malpoet? It is so worrying… so worrying.
I do agree Narnie.
It is fascinating, but tragic that quite a lot of people are willing to believe absolutely ridiculous nonsense and commit their lives, their families and their money to cults whose leaders are quite obvious charlatans.
In drawing attention to some of these organisations, part of my purpose is to highlight the similarities between current ones (like Travesser’s group at Strong City) and previous cults that have ended in tragedy. I know it is a faint hope because we are dealing largely with closed minds, but if people can start to realise that cult leaders are generally pursuing their own lusts for power, sex and control rather than leading their followers towards any God, paradise or better life, then there may be a little hope.
As will be clear from many of my other posts, it is not only tiny cults that cause people to fall prey to manipulation and exploitation. The largest of mainstream religions harbour predatory people with serious personality defects who damage and misuse people in their parishes or under their care. This kind of danger is inherent in the authoritarian nature of religious belief. It tends to be worse in the smaller and more ardent sects where leaders claim more Messiah like attributes and intensify commitment by claiming imminent apocalypse.
WOW…. i was look’n for the friends of the Republic tEXAS and found this site… BUT understand i feel the US government screwed Koresh and the boy’s at Ruby Ridge….
Have one of them contact me witrh a email address….
long live NR/TRA and god sae our guns…
Hawk
I support freedom Hawk, but racists like Weaver, child rapists like Koresh and the whole collection of nutcases including McVeigh who want to destroy those who disagree with them are no friends of freedom.
You seem to be ferreting out some of the live wires out there. I usually just get friendly fellow atheist bloggers at my site – but there do seem to be a population of vocal cult leader defenders out there. I suppose there have always been hermits and ascetics and in the past they could go off into the hills and people would snicker at them and sometimes they would gather adherents – but today there is nowhere to go. The FLDS or other cultists try to dissapear into their oewn world but cannot completely. Even Jim Jones was unable to escape a visit by a senator in remote Guyana.
These cult defenders are extremely defensive – a symptom of knowing that you are doing something wrong or come from a weak position. Smug, delusional, rambling and the newest trick that has become quite popular is the use of projection. The ID apologists use this a lot -accusing your opponent of being what you are. It’s a lesson in absurdity and attempts to derail the conversation so the opponent can get no foothold in reason. So you get this kind of “See, YOU”RE the delusional one”. Pathetic.
Good to stumble on your post.
The coming of the one True God is very near, even at the doors.
Unlike other posters here, I will not attempt to condone or justify any actions that Koresh may or may not have taken part in with other members of his religious sect. I am here simply to state our constitutional rights to a fair and just trial which Koresh never received. The ability to carry out an efficient and effective raid on such a small compound by the United States Military is something that they were more than capable of (I know as I happen to be in the Military myself). The massacre that alternatively ensued was an apparently blatant and intentional destruction of human life.
I find it bewildering that we were able to obtain Sadam Hussein unscathed from the middle east to provide a fair and just trial for.. yet we couldn’t simply apprehend Koresh without the slaughter of women and children. You can blame Mr. Koresh for many things.. but you can’t blame him for the lives that were lost on that fateful day.
The US government should be capable of carrying out a live arrest of Koresh and others in his compound. Sadly the ATF did not have that capability. The military do not, and should not, carry out domestic arrests. The carnage at Waco was primarily the responsibility of Koresh, his delusions and paranoia, but I agree that it was handled atrociously badly by the ATF and other agencies. I do not accept at all that the killings were deliberate or pre-planned. The evidence is not there to show that the deaths were ‘blatant and intentional’.
Saddam was a pathetic, defeated man in a hole and he was betrayed for payment. He chose to come out alive rather than die in the hole because he did not have the same madness as Koresh. There are no valid comparisons between the two events.
I can and do blame Koresh for the deaths of his followers. The state agencies bear responsibility for their incompetence in allowing Koresh to bring about this apocalyptic event, but the initiator of it was Koresh and the crimes that he committed.
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bible peace…
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